What You Need To Know About Reunification Therapy

Women all over the United States think they’re doing the right thing, divorcing their abusive husband. That the court will help them protect their children from abuse. But instead, the court orders the children to reunification therapy. Here’s what everyone needs to know about reunification therapy.

Tina Swithin from One Mom’s Battle and Anne Blythe, M.Ed. from The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast talk about what you need to know.

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Therapy should, first and foremost, empower children. Reunification therapy does the exact opposite. “Professionals” re-abuse children, subjecting them to reunification therapy by gaslighting them into blaming their protective parent for the negative feelings they have for the abuser. Abusers not only traumatize the children by the gaslighting itself, but also children are:

• Often forced into participation against their will.
• Accused of lying about the abuse.
• Forced to spend time with their abuser.
• Isolated from their protective/preferred parent.

Considering how harmful Reunification Therapy is, how can it possibly exist? It’s a “lucrative cottage industry” that abusers have weaponized to gain access to their child victims, while causing inexpressible pain to the protective parent. And those in the reunification industry continue to push for it because it lines their pockets.

If you’re experiencing the trauma of the family court system, please attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today – you are not alone and you do not have to endure this on your own. We love you, we believe you.

Transcript: What You Need To Know About Reunification Therapy

Anne: I have a super special guest on today’s episode. It’s Tina Swithin, and so many of you are familiar with her. Tina is an internationally recognized blogger and champion of children’s rights in the family court system. She endured a 10 year family court battle representing herself, and against all odds was successful in protecting her children.

Tina works to raise awareness on the shortcomings and failures of the family court system, while educating the public on post separation abuse and narcissistic abuse.

Anne: Welcome Tina.

Tina: Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Happy to connect.

Anne: We had the privilege of meeting in person in a protest in Utah about family court and how it does not protect children. You may have seen us do an Instagram live during that time. So I wanted Tina to talk about a few issues related to family court, and how in most states, for a protective parent seeking a divorce from an abusive parent, that protective parent has a very hard time protecting her children.

Anne: On my podcast, because our audience is women who have been abused by men, I speak in gender segregated ways, simply because that is our audience. But I want to recognize that women can also be abusive. However, for our listeners, since they’re all women victims of male abusers, that’s why I talk like this.

Reunification Camps, DCFS & Therapy

Anne: Should we start with reunification camps and maybe reunification therapy?

Tina: Yes, I think that’s a good place to dive in. And it’s a hot topic right now. It’s something that has infiltrated the family court system and is definitely not in a child’s best interest.

Anne: So I have a friend who’s a pediatrician, and sometimes she refers cases she sees in her pediatric office to DCFS, which is Division of Child and Family Services here in Utah. She reports cases in Utah, they never return as supported. Every time she reports child abuse in the state of Utah, it comes back as unsupported.

And the reason it comes back as unsupported is because usually it’s the safe parent, like a safe mom, that brings the child into the pediatrician’s office, and it happened at an ex-husband’s home. And when DCFS talks to the man accused of the abuse, as long as he has a reason.

If he says, “Oh, no, that didn’t happen.” What happened was I was trying to, help with her homework, or explain to him how to do this. Or he says, “Sorry I lost my temper, but I’m a good dad.” As long as he explains it, and he doesn’t say yes, I am an abuser. It comes back as unsupported. She has no way to help these protective moms protect their kids from abuse. In many cases, kids don’t want to go.

Tina: To piggyback on what you said, it’s a universal problem across the entire country. And I believe there are two things at play.

Bias Against Protective Moms In Family Courts

Tina: Number one, there is a strong bias that moms make up abuse allegations to get a leg up in custody. So as soon as they hear there is any type of family court case or child custody situation, they cannot close it fast enough. That’s a lot of what we’re up against. The second factor is that they see horrors daily. And the threshold for what’s acceptable is so skewed.

The majority of situations that they are investigating don’t even register on their scale of abuse or neglect. And it’s really unfortunate, because this is an entity that is failing our kids. And when a mom is in the family court system, she has very few resources to support her truth and her side of the story.

Most people walk into this naively, believing that these other organizations are there to act in a child’s best interest. And so they walk in with this false sense of hope that if a pediatrician does report it, it will bolster their case and their ability to protect their child. I tell people in family court, I don’t believe reports do anything except a paper trail.

If you get enough of them, it can start to have an impact. But, you know, when moms are in family court, there are many, many challenges that they are facing. And CPS findings are just one of those.

Anne: So your first barrier is number one, thinking that reporting. is going to help.

The He Said, She Said Dilemma

Anne: They do a very quick investigation. It’s unsupported if he gives a “good reason.” Then you look like the bad guy for claiming he’s abusive when he’s not. And the only thing he had to do was say, no, no, no, I’m not abusive. That negates both the victim’s account, which is the child, and then also the safe parent’s account.

Tina: Right, and I think a large part of the problem in family court is that it is he said, she said. Family Court has the same issue that CPS does. The threshold will skew for what is acceptable. So they take someone’s word at face value. The majority of things happening in family court are considered hearsay.

The family court system becomes annoyed with people, you know, they don’t understand the dynamics at play. That this is typically one high conflict individual, and one parent desperate to protect their children. The court lumps the protective parent into the same category. And. It’s really difficult to go in with solid evidence, because abusers do not abuse children in broad daylight. They do sometimes, but it’s rare. Usually, what is happening is behind closed doors.

We’re dealing with a court system that is if, at a very minimum, they have 101 training on domestic violence. But most family court judges and professionals have no training on these issues. And so when you get into the more complex coercive control, it’s an uphill battle.

You know, there’s a reason why it took a decade in my case to finally terminate rights. And that’s a common scenario. I tell people, if your case is not still active when your kids age out of the system, it’s somewhat of a miracle.

Reunification Therapy Disempowers Children

Anne: You know, it’s interesting, because abuse advocates will go into schools. Or talk to kids and say, if this is happening, do you reach out to a safe adult and report? And they think that if they could get kids to report their abuse, they could be protected. If a child says, “My parent abuses me” in court, that child must prove they’re abused.

If they just say, my parent abuses me, and the accused parent says, no, no, that’s not what’s happening. The court gives them no protection. Children’s cries for help, doing what adults told them to do. They were like, okay, I went to that assembly, and now I’m going to reach out and ask for help. I’m going to report that this is happening to me. And then a system further abuses them, that won’t believe them or discounts their accounts.

Tina: Right, and these professionals barely trained in the 101 of domestic violence don’t understand victim perpetrator behaviors. And how children present when telling these stories. A statement I heard in the past few months resonates with me. “It’s easier for people to believe that a child is coached to disclose these things, than to believe that a child is abused.” We don’t believe this darkness in society, but it is there.

Accusations Of Coaching & Alienation

Tina: And we have to start listening to these kids. When a child is a victim of abuse, and finally feels empowered. And brave enough to report. The healthy parent, the mom in most situations, fights accusations of coaching them. Or the big word in the family court system, which has infiltrated and created an absolute disaster, alienation.

They accuse you of alienation. Abusers employ that legal strategy to turn the tables and focus and spotlight on what’s going on. What they have been doing behind closed doors, and shift the blame to the parent who is just trying to protect their child.

Anne: So a child desperately wants no contact and no exposure to further abuse. In the form of just being around their abuser. The court says in so many cases, “No, your parent coached you into saying that. You’re not actually abused. Your parent that you say is abusing you is fine, he’s a great guy. In fact, you need to get your story straight. And so we will court order you to reunification therapy.”

This reunification therapy can take many forms. They can essentially kidnap or traffic the children and take them across state lines to a reunification camp. The court forces children to do therapy and reconcile with their abuser in reunification therapy. And they force the child to improve or repair their relationship with their abuser.

Reunification Therapy: A Closer Look

Anne: So can you talk about both forms of reunification torture, let’s call it?

Tina: Sure, it is, that is what it is. The way I describe it, if there is a finding of abuse and everyone’s on board and believes this is happening, it cuts off the financial flow of money. Because we know we cannot fix an abuser.

Anne: Really quickly, let’s just pretend for a minute that they were like, “Oh, child, you’re abused? Okay, you don’t have to go with your dad. Your mom gets full custody.” The end, and the custody case is over. The divorce case is over and signed. They just go their merry way.

Are you saying that if that would happen, then all the custody evaluators, guardian ad litems, therapists, et cetera. That are part of this system, would not be able to make money? Because they make money off of these court ordered requirements?

Tina: Absolutely.

Anne: So, They’re all kind of in on it.

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Tina: I think there are some who believe they are doing the right thing. You know, there is this common thought, that two parents are better than one, no matter what, is a common thought you know. I don’t agree with that. I think a child needs one healthy adult in their life to thrive.

Judges & The Alienation Industry

Tina: But, that’s a large part of the bias we’re up against in the family court system. And so we have a range of professionals who believe they’re doing the right thing. Or they may be doing the right thing. To people who, this is their financial livelihood. And, from that, we see rings of collusion or outright corruption throughout the family court system. A lot of people motivated by their own bank accounts don’t prioritize the best interests of a child.

Anne: One of my questions is, since it’s the guardian ad litems, custody evaluators and therapists that get the money from this. A judge gets a regular salary from the county or state. They’re not necessarily paid more if they send more kids to reunification therapy, for example.

Tina: I think that when we’re looking at judges and why they would order this. If they have a regular salary and don’t get more money. There are those who believe they are doing the right thing, and they’ve drank the Kool Aid. That these professionals have poured.

I call it the alienation industry. It’s a lucrative cottage industry. So the trainings that the judges are taking in, they are seeing these people as experts. Overbooked calendars cause judges to force people through this system, like cattle, and the judges are in this state of overwhelm.

They almost have, I call it, the a la carte menu on their desk. Oh, great, I can push this case off on this person who can dive in and investigate what’s going on.

Reunification Therapy Is Traumatizing

Tina: But that person is financially motivated to label a parent as alienator.

Anne: Like a custody evaluator, for example, or a guardian ad litem. Because if they say, nope, this is just an abuser, and the kid shouldn’t go with them. Then they’re not able to charge their hourly rates anymore.

Tina: Absolutely, and then they force the child through reunification therapy, it’s not successful. You can’t force two people into a relationship that’s fractured. Common sense tells us this. Or if there is no bond in the first place. That has to be something that works naturally, not with forced intervention. And especially in cases where abuse occurs. This is further traumatizing these children.

So when these children are not complying or going along with the program, the extreme situation would be for the reunification therapist to recommend reunification therapy camp. That’s a very extreme and further traumatizing direction that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. The stories haunt me.

Anne: The logic that judges have so many cases that they’re like, I’m just too overwhelmed, so I’m going to pass this off to a custody evaluator is interesting. Because if they do that, there are more and more hearings.

There’s more and more to do when that happens. If they really wanted to clear their docket, they’d just be like, Oh, this child says she’s being abused. I’m just going to listen to the kid and declare this over. I think it’s ironic if they’re like, Oh, I’m so overwhelmed. That they would choose the thing that makes way more work for themselves.

Abusers Weaponize Reunification Therapy

Tina: But they know that these cases are high conflict. Some people don’t like that word, but it is the label used or that phrase. And so regardless of which direction it goes, they’re going to keep filing. A lot of these abusive individuals are vexatious litigants, where they use the family court system as their playground. They continue their reign of terror and control, it’s not going to stop the case. They’re going to keep trying.

So in the case of Ty and Brindley Larson. We had Child Protective Services come in and make multiple findings of abuse, which, as we’ve discussed, is incredibly rare. Not only did they substantiate the abuse, they labeled some sexual abuse and other types chronic and severe.

And when that happened, it completely took the case out of family court, and the kids were protected. And the kids did not have to see their abuser. There was actually a restraining order in place. I believe it was for 150 days. And, and at that point, the alleged abuser brought the case back into family court.

And before you know it, there were multiple professionals put into place. A reunification therapy therapist, minors council, and all of a sudden these children are being forced back into visits with their alleged abuser. And not only visits but overnight visits.

Anne: This isn’t alleged at this point, right? Because DCFS supported it?

Tina: Some people say because he didn’t go through the criminal justice system and wasn’t convicted. That it’s still better to use alleged.

Anne: Oh, alright.

Tina: There’s a reason why it didn’t go through the criminal justice system, in my opinion, but…

The Trauma Of Reunification Therapy Camps

Anne: So the court orders them to have contact with their abuser, and then when they refuse, they’re like, heck no, we’re not going. They barricade themselves in their room. Then the court orders them to reunification camp. So let’s talk more about what this reunification therapy or reunification camp entails.

Tina: So reunification therapy is forcing a child against their will to contact their alleged abuser. And I’m speaking in general terms. And if the child doesn’t want to participate or speaks out about what’s happening. The court considers them severely alienated, and then they are subject to reunification camps.

Anne: When you say severely alienated, what you mean is people think these kids have been brainwashed so much by the protective parent. There’s this other parent who has brainwashed these kids, coached them into thinking they were abused when they actually were not.

Tina: Exactly, so when the court labels them as severely alienated, the solution these people propose is reunification camp. And these are four day intensives.

They call them therapy. I cannot call this therapy. Reunification therapy is traumatizing for these kids. They are cut off from all contact with their preferred parent. The court sends them to this camp. We’ve reviewed testimony where some camp owners talk about what happens on each day of the camp. The first day they are told that nothing in the past matters.

How Do Reunification Therapies and Camps Traumatize Children?

Tina: We are only focused on here and now and future movement. And then when the kids bring up, but he did this to me or this, they redirect them back to the present day. The past does not matter. And we are talking about children who have been sexually abused. You know, I can’t imagine being put in a room with my abuser, let alone my abuser receiving full custody of me. And me being forced to have a relationship.

Everyone I, you know, I explained this reunification therapy to says, it sounds medieval. How is this happening? And Everyone says it sounds like a racket because it is. These camps cost around, I’ve heard anywhere between 15,000 and 40,000 dollars for a weekend.

Anne: It’s 50/50, meaning the protective parent must pay 50 percent of the fees. So not only are they punished, they can’t see their child or that their child is taken away. But also because it’s a financial burden for them to have to pay for the abuser to have contact with their child.

Tina: It’s usually divided 50/50, but there are lots of different situations where that has gone in different directions. But we heard a story recently where a mom pleads to the court that she could not afford the camp and was told to cash out her daughter’s college fund to pay for it.

Anne: Wow.

Tina: And so on day two of these reunification therapy camps, they’re forced to play memory games to show them that their memory is not always accurate. That their preferred parent or protected parent was lying. And that the abuse did not happen. And so it’s professional organized gaslighting.

Kidnapping & Psychological Warfare Of Reunification Therapy

Tina: When I read the actual words from the people who own the reunification therapy camp. Any psychologist who understands these dynamics would say this is gaslighting.

Anne: Psychological warfare, really of children.

Tina: Absolutely.

Anne: With the reunification therapy camps, they kidnapped the kids right?

Tina: Yeah, and they often cross state lines. Many times they are operating out of Air B&Bs or in hotel suites. There are a few camps, physical locations. There’s one in Texas, and one in California. The way they avoid human trafficking charges by crossing state lines, they transfer custody at each leg.

So when the transport agents remove the children, you have guardianship. Then when they take the children to the camp, they transfer custody to the camp owner. And then ultimately, the alleged abuser maintains custody. The way it’s written in the court orders, the people who own the camp maintain full control of the case for at least a year.

Once the four day reunification therapy camp is complete, in all these cases, the preferred parent isn’t allowed back in. There’s a 90 day blockout period where they’re allowed no contact. And if contact is made or attempted, the 90 days starts all over again. But it’s never 90 days. We have stories where parents have been two years, four years without their children. Some parents don’t even know where their children are two years later.

Systematic Child Abuse & Survivors Speaking Out About Reunification Therapy

Anne: It is a systematic form of child abuse.

Tina: Absolutely. And I think it can be even more traumatizing and abusive than what the kids have already been through. The stories I’ve heard from these survivors would break a healthy grown adult. So these kids will be the change.

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Tina: They are starting to age out of the system and speak out about these things. The media is finally paying attention and covering these stories. And I think it’s a matter of time before it is exposed for what it is. It’s human trafficking.

Anne: A podcast called Civic interviewed Tina. The title is The Industry of Defending Child Abusers. It’s an in-depth investigative report of this, reunification therapy, and it’s really detailed. It’s excellent.

Personal Stories Of Struggle Against Abuse

Anne: Due to the financial and litigation abuse you experienced through the 10 years of legal abuse you endured. You needed to do your case pro se, which means you represented yourself. And so I am so proud of you and impressed by you. That you did that and that you just kept fighting for your kids. That’s awesome. Your story was so inspirational to me.

After my divorce, my ex still abused my children and me for eight years. It was horrific. Every day was a struggle. I lost a custody battle when I thought the court would help me. And so I thought there had to be a way to beat him out of court. Through a lot of trial and error, I developed strategies that worked for me. It was a miracle. And then I didn’t know if it was just a fluke, so I asked other victims, “Hey, will you try these strategies out? Because I want to see if they work for you.”

And we found so much success. So I put all the strategies I used to get my kids and I to safety in the BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. These strategies work if you’re still married or divorced, either way. Because they help women understand what he’s doing, why, and what he wants out of it. And how to cut that off. When my ex signed those papers, it was such a relief, I almost couldn’t believe it. It was like, is this real.

Deliverance & Protection From Abuse

Anne: It took a while to sink in. That I had been successful. The peace I felt since then has been overwhelming. You too were finally able to protect your children, and get them away from their abusive father. Can you talk about how you felt when this happened to you?

Tina: You know, it was interesting that you ask, because I’ve shared this with close friends and family members where I had visualized for so long what that day would feel like, because that’s what we hope for. That’s what we pray for. He wasn’t allowed to call the girls on the day visits finally ended. It was no contact period.

I walked out of the courthouse, and imagined a flood of tears and this huge relief, because that juncture was around the six year mark. I left that courthouse in shock. Almost in a disassociative state. It had been six years of living in fight or flight mode.

I slept with a hammer under my pillow for a time, because I was in fear for our lives. It took me about three months for peace and before the floodgates opened. I started to process what had happened, and I’m still in therapy. My case started 13 years ago, and I’m still processing the trauma.

I often say the post separation abuse and watching what my children endured without being able to protect them. Which is what nature intended me to do, was far more abusive than what I experienced during my relationship. And I think the family court system and institutional betrayal are to blame for that.

Shocking End To The Story

Anne: Absolutely, these people should help you. They should protect you. Everyone says report as if that’s the solution. My kids still have limited contact, but it works in my case with my specific situation. Knowing that everyone’s situation is different, I think, is important too. So let’s go back to the story of Ty and Brinley.

Do you know what happened when the Utah Attorney General, Sean Reyes, got involved with the case with Ty and Brinley and sent people down to Provo to observe? Do you know what happened with the details of that?

Tina: I have no idea why nothing came of that, because it gave everyone so much hope to know that the Attorney General’s office assigned someone to pay attention to this case and watch the final days of these hearings in Judge Pullen’s courtroom, but the ruling that came down is shocking to everyone.

Every time I speak to a journalist or media person and explain that this dad received full custody. Even though there are findings of severe and chronic abuse. But that Judge Pullen gave him full custody. Full custody, yet he can’t be unsupervised with his own kids. The court orders the kids separated and put into two different houses with paternal family members versus their mom.

And so the fact that the Attorney General was witness to that unfolding is mind blowing to me.

Difficult Choices To Protect Children

Anne: Yeah, it is crazy. I’m constantly shocked. Recently, the same pediatrician I was talking about at the beginning gave these pictures of bruises on these children to court. They testified about abuse. And the guardian ad litem in that case, and the judge both said, Oh, yeah, I don’t think that that counts as abuse. No problem, 50/50 custody.

Tina: Unbelievable.

Anne: It is shocking, especially in a state like Utah that thinks children are important, apparently. And I’m like, apparently not. Apparently, they value men’s exploitative privilege.

Tina: Absolutely, I think that sums up most of what we’re all up against. In terms of a parent still in the abusive relationship. It’s heartbreaking to me, because I get the messages saying, I’ve read your story. Or I watch what’s happening on your blog with other stories. I would rather stay, because I know that I have a better chance of protecting my kids.

And what a failure this system is, when victims of domestic abuse would rather stay in the relationship than risk losing their children to their abuser. That is a failure in itself. But I cannot emphasize the importance of understanding your local system, learning it like the back of your hand. Really entrenching yourself in who the judges are, who the bad and good players are and having an attorney that truly gets it.

I always struggle or hesitate to use this term, but radical acceptance. It is not a system that’s in children’s best interest. And unfortunately, it is a system that requires a tremendous amount of strategy. And it shouldn’t, and that’s not fair, and it’s not just, but that’s the reality of what we’re up against.

The Importance Of Documentation & Laws When Faced With Reunification Therapy

Tina: So document everything, and people cringe when I say that. I always say 99 percent of my documentation isn’t seen by anyone, but I would do it all again. Because the 1 percent I was able to showcase in court or in custody evaluations is what protected my kids. Last year, with the Violence Against Women’s Act passing at the federal level, it’s the first time. The federal government recognized that we have a crisis in the family court system.

They passed Kayden’s Law with VAWA. You can find out more about it at nationalsafeparents.org It incentivizes states, and I don’t remember the exact dollar amounts, but it incentivizes states to adopt Kayden’s Law.

One of the things it will do is restrict expert testimony to those who are appropriately qualified to provide it. The standards for the experts, there are many people in the alienation industry pushing their own agenda. And so it will create a standard for expert testimony, which is long overdue. You would think that would be common sense in the family court system, but unfortunately it’s not. And it would limit the use of reunification therapy and camps.

There is no proof that reunification therapy, and camps are safe and effective. So it’s going to address the issue we’ve talked about here today. And it’s going to require that family courts consider past abuse. And right now they don’t, you know, they, they can say that just because he abused you, doesn’t mean he abused the kids, and they’re so wrong on that.

The Need For Evidence-Based Training

Tina: And they’re calling for evidence-based training for judges and family court professionals. Which, again, just seems like common sense. My dog groomer must have a certain amount of hours to receive her certification to groom my dog. Yet our family court judges have no training. That needs to stop.

Anne: The parental alienation side trains them. They’re going to conferences where people are talking about this. They think, okay, it’s fine that they train me about alienation, which protects child abusers. But heaven forbid, you require me, no way! Why do I need to get trained about child abuse? I know everything already.

I see this quite a bit, and it’s super, super annoying to me and traumatic to me that certain therapists or guardian ad litems or custody evaluators think so highly of themselves that they are flattered by the abuser. So they think they’ve turned him into a safe person. They’re like, “Oh, here we have this man who’s been abusive in all these ways. And I, through my helpful guidance, will tell him, Hey, you’ve been abusive and you’ve been terrible.” And then when he grooms them and says, “I know that was wrong. I’m not ever going to do that again.”

They pat themselves on the back as if, so good that I was part of this case. It’s so nice now that these parents can co parent together. And these kids can be safe, and they can have their dad in their life. And everything is going to be okay now, because I did such a good job,

Tina: Right

Narcissism In Family Court Professionals

Tina: I think there’s a high level of narcissism in our family court professionals. I think there’s a range between that high level of narcissism and financial incentive. That it’s in their best interest to keep these kids going through this pipeline of alienation services. And all of it. So I think that’s a huge issue in the family court system.

Anne: You should focus on yourself if you’re involved in your own current situation. You don’t need to change the world right now, but learn strategy and how to keep yourself safe at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We have The Living Free Workshop, a BTR strategy workshop.

If you’re not involved in your own case and horrified by this, which I hope you are. I hope you feel angry. I hope you feel upset. And I hope that that justifiable righteous anger motivates you to get more educated about this. Go to nationalsafeparents.org and find out how you can support a law like Kayden’s Law passed in your state.

And then also, please, if you have a social media account, which I totally support you if you do not, post about this. Post comments to Civic – The Industry of Defending Child Abusers, Tina’s interview and this, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Just talk to people about it and get the word out that this is occurring.

Most people I talked to, especially in my case, when I said I had a supported domestic abuse case, right? And he pled guilty. They think the next thing is, oh, I’m so glad you’re safe. I’m glad your kids don’t have to go with him. And when I say the next thing, no, he actually got more custody. The shock ensues, right?

The Role Of Everyday Citizens To Stop Reunification Therapy

Anne: Most people are unaware that this is happening. So helping get the word out is the most important thing I think people can do.

Tina: When everyday citizens who are not affected by the family court system link arms with us and demand better for our children. That’s where we will see a change, because it’s so easy to label all of us as hysterical moms. That bias is overwhelming. People not involved in family court need to stand with us in outrage and reach out to their legislators and put this on their radar. That it is an absolute crisis.

Anne: They hurt our children, it’s a crisis. I met with a legislator about Kayden’s Law here in Utah, and I said to him, “Currently, there are safe parents trying to protect their own children from a known child abuser, and the court prohibits them from protecting them. And the more they try to protect their kid, the worse off it gets for everybody.”

Tina: Absolutely.

Anne: Well, Tina, thank you so much for your hard work. We appreciate everything you do to bring this issue to light. So thank you so much for talking with me today.

Tina: Thank you.

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